ericb2schmidtm: hi Matthias mproveHi there, what's up?schmidtmericb2: Hi Eric - I'm back after getting merried, beeing ill and than on a buisness trip.ericb2Ooops, sorry, I think we can startschmidtm: yes, congratulations !!tinoschmidtm: Congratulations!schmidtmthanks :-) !mprovetada tada tadaschmidtmericb2: I am very delighted that you guy picked up my AquaBuild wiki page and improved it!ericb2Let's go : Point 1 is Welcome to new devs, and last aqua newsobrschmidtm: congrats from me as wellschmidtmobr: thanks!ericb2I'm not sure we all know mprove , maybe he could present himself ?mprovetough - Matthias Müller-Prove. 4 years at Sun in the User Experience Team for StarOffice/OpenOffice12years in the industry, that means 3 years at Adobe+3 years at GoLive -- creating the user interface of the Web Editor Adobe GoLive CyberStudionow I skip some stuffcomputer scientist (Diplom-Informatiker) at U of Hamburgmy special topic is the history of hypertext and GUIsQ?ericb2mprove: Welcome on board :-)shaunmcdonaldmprove: how did you get involved with the mac platform?mprovemany many years ago in secondary school we started with Apple 2 -- the brand sticksschmidtmmprove: Welcome!shaunmcdonaldmprove: used apple all your life then?mproveMy first Mac OS was System #4IZBotno issue with number 4ericb2:)shaunmcdonaldmprove: well before my time ;-)mproveAtari (cheaper) Vax (Prolog), Symbolics (Lisp), and now and then PVoops, PCspaveljaniklooks like complete Mac newbie :-)shaunmcdonaldmprove: I've used a commodore64 when I was younger, and that was even before my timemproveyeah, sorry, cannot compete with you guyaericb2paveljanik: me too ;-)mprovedo you remember Boulder Dash on C64? Bit this is a different story.tinoericb2: And first of all me :)shaunmcdonaldmprove: nomprove'was funschmidtmmprove: I loved boulderdash on the C64 ...shaunmcdonaldklax, flimbo's quest are memorable cartridge games thoughericb2mprove: what is your plan to help us ? Or suggestion .. or ?mproveBTW: a half of a photo of me at http://mprove.de/about/contact.htmlericb2mprove: if you agree, you are welcome to propose a complete one for http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/developers/currentdevelopers/index.html ;-)shaunmcdonaldmprove: please send it to me with a little blurbI'll get it added, if there are no complaintsmproveLet's see if I can find my second half somewhere .... http://images.google.de/images?q=Matthias+Mueller-Prove ericb2obr cloph schmidtm are invited too :-)mproveHmm, but I'll post one to youshaunmcdonaldmprove: best send it to smsm1@openoffice.orgschmidtmericb2: I'm still in photoshop to make pictures of me look pretty, stay tuned ...ericb2schmidtm: :-)Maybe we can continue wit last Aqua changes ?shaunmcdonaldericb2: is there anyone else we don't know well?ericb2shaunmcdonald: maybe sky could present himself ? He proposed to help for the siteshaunmcdonaldericb2: I remember, you had said something about that in an e-mailericb2shaunmcdonald: yes, I didshaunmcdonaldericb2: My memory can't be that bad then :-Pericb2Ok, let's go with last Aqua changeswho will start ?shaunmcdonaldhasn't touch aqua code yet :-(ericb2paveljanik: ?schmidtmschmidtm: my last task was to debug a crash, no outcome so far.mav_eric joined the chat room.mav_ericericb2schmidtm: thankspaveljanikI do not have news this week - I'm fighting with alpha, transparency and menu images :-(ericb2mav_eric: hi Ericmav_erichi Ericshaunmcdonaldmav_eric: hellomav_erichi Shaunericb2paveljanik: I have seen a screenshot, not easypaveljanikit should be easy once I find time to investigate all these Bitmap* and *Bitmap types.ericb2from my side, I found what was wrong with some native controls : scrollbar now works as expected, and since this evening, I fixed pushbutton drawingof course, the code needs some reviewMany thanks to Philipp Lohmann, and Kendy for the important tip they gave me on dev@gsl mailing listI got some screenshots, and I'll commit pushbutton code when resync with m187 will be completedhttp://eric.bachard.free.fr/mac/aquavcl/screenshots/native_controls_aqua_13_10_06/next native control I'm working for is ComboBoxtinoResync is in progress :)ericb2tino: thank you :-)Of course, Pierre and me are working together. More efficientLast but not least, we try to document everything we do : http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Porting_-_Native_ControlsAnother work in progress I want to mention, is the one Yvan Barthelemy started for native printinghttp://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X_Porting_-_Native_Printingschmidtmericb2: This is 'YBart' in the wiki, right?ericb2schmidtm: yes, he isYvan works with his professor, and maybe they will help us about design.yet another work in progress is the Native Filepicker. Florian is working on it, but I don't know more. Last status was X11 backport does not completely work.that's all for me :-)tinoAnd finally my work on the bridge exception handling problem, which is on my agenda currentlyBut my progress is very slow currently due to a lot of stress at work :(I have a solution how to fix it which I know works but as I said work in progress. When this is done the intel bridges works completely and I can help more at the really Aqua front again :)Oh and I forgot the testtool problem which I need to have a look at yetericb2other news .?Point 2: Plan for Improve User Interfacemprove: I have added ( with contribution of Matthias Müller-Prove ). Are you ok to presnet us your point of view ? incompatible encodingmproveyap - I have to activate my speed typing bot again.tinomprove: :)mproveno bot -- I have to do it myself. So, there is no point in simply telling you the content of the Apple Human Interface Guidelines http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.htmlericb2preparing "Action Items " list :-) mproveInstead I have 2 other entry points to offer. 1) not every UI element contributes to the same extent to the overall look'n'feel of the UI. Some are more visible and therefore important. Hence I did some brainstorming with myself and like to discuss what I found.shaunmcdonaldhas Google notepad beside himmprove2nd approach: The HIGuidlines contain 3-5 pages at the end about certain levels of brave Apple applications. We can discuss those points as well.Shall we start with the 1st approach?ericb2mprove: pleasedoskypeeks his head outmproveicon, controls, windows, dragNdrop, speedtoolbar icons are fine. But we have an issue with the application/document icons visible in the FinderskyI offered to 'revamp' the porting siteas its a disconnected and outdated tangle :)mproveI know you are aware of this issue, I suppose the OOoCon branding presentation covered this.skyso ill just throw together what I think it should be and offer it upmprovecontrols>menus: some rearrangements of menu items might be necessaary. e.g. Apple has no Exit menu; but an application menu insteadellipses ("...") are an issue, but this is the same issue that I am working on for OOo anyway.you are already working an native controls -- that's great! However the Windows freestyle combobox has no equivalent on Mac. And Popups open to the entire height of the screen. comments?Then I continue with windows.windows>dialog: Native FilePicker is important (and on the way?)ericb2mprove: Needs some work, but yes, it islouis_to joined the chat room.louis_tomproveattached Save Alerts to the document are nice-to-have (But even GoLive has not cathed up in this respect)I just bring the point to stress the fact that sometimes little things can make a huge differenceto the user, even thought the functionality remains the same.OK/Cancel vs. Cancel/OKskythats called a SheetmproveOOo's tool windows are behaving kind of strange. Each document has its own set of supporting windows. When you change from window A to B the Navigator jumps on the screen.It's bad on the other platforms as well, but I assume Mac users care more about stuff like that.shaunmcdonaldmprove: bring it inline to the apple HCI, then user's on other platforms happier too?mprovedocument window: we can collect many points if we implement a better canvas -- the non page area of a window. shadows and pleasant gradients, you know what I mean, right?shaunmcdonald: yes, in this case definitelyone final point for doc windows.I am writing a lot, and when I fist came to Windows the cursor scrolling behaviour drove me nuts. When you scroll your document on Windows the text cursor follows in the visible area.On Mac it is important (and common) that the text cursor stays where it is. Using the scrollbar or PageUp/Down key dont change the cursor position. Tiny detail, but very important for folks who come from other Mac text applications to OOoI skip proper dragNdrop behaviour at this point. OOo on Windows/Linux has some homework to do in this area.Final point of by personal list: SpeeeeedLaunch time, save time, and BTW proper progress indicators.That's it on my approach #1. What do you think?IZBotno issue with number 1shaunmcdonaldmprove: start time in aqua is less, though that may have something to do with not all the code having been implementedmproveDo you compare with OOo on Windows/Linux or with other applications for Mac?ericb2shaunmcdonald: or the fact you are using Intel archmproveany other comments?shaunmcdonaldericb2: no comparing X11 start to that aqua build you gave me before (on the same machine)ericb2mprove: compared to OOo on Linux PowerPC (I build some versions), it's a bit slower on Mac OS X. But not too much IMHOshaunmcdonald: you're right, X11 start time is goodmproveMy point is, we have to compete with other big apps on Mac coming from Redmond or Santa Clara.shaunmcdonaldericb2: but not as good as the aqua ;-)ericb2mprove: an important point I discussed with Apple UI engineers at the WWDC, was :when you start, the menus should only show what you need *now*mprovewhat is now? Context menus?ericb2mprove: yes; e.g. just the first sreen should ask "what do you want to do, or choose to do .. "mproveor another kind of app that adopts to the task at handwell -- that is a different approachWe can also discuss the Office12 way at a future meetingno menus at allericb2mprove: I know Apple will help us if we go in the direction I pointedmprove: sorry, I don't know Office12mprovedesign or implementation?anyway -- are you ready for my 2nd approach?ericb2mprove: yes ( /me verbose )mprovehttp://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.htmlan go to Minimum Requirements at http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGPrioritizing/chapter_21_section_2.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000957-CH302-SW1this is a bullet list of requirements for new applications on Maclet's seemenu bar on top: donethe dock: we don't care yetmultilayer window environment: I suppose we are finedefault locations for documents: don't knowAqua control: you rock!System reserved shortcut: Needs to be checked. I suppose there are conflicts.Use standard keyboard shortcuts: fairly ok.ericb2mprove: no, not really. everything has to be done : we start from scratchmproveclipboard support: dont know, but I think it is ok.ericb2no, againmproveTo summarize, the OOo port is not that bad for level 1 compliance.Next level: and I will skip some points: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGPrioritizing/chapter_21_section_3.htmlwell, I'll skip all of them, because I have either mentioned them on my first part, or we have accomplished them because of OOo on other platforms is ok.Level 3: http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGPrioritizing/chapter_21_section_4.htmlI just like to highlight the last point: Surprise and delightWith some jewels in the app users tend to forgive you some other glitches.That's all folks.ericb2mprove: thank you for your expertise :-)mproveyou are welcomeericb2mprove: to be present on Mac OS X port since several year, this is the first time we really analyse things like that.mprove: but we had good reasons: nothing was existing, we were not organized, and X11 version had a lot of problemsmprovebootstrapping, right?ericb2mprove: yesmproveThe Mac is supposed to be a transparent extension to the mind of the person on front of the screen. Little stuff that is out of place distracts the human ability to focus on the task at hand. Users want to get their job done. They do not earn anything if they move a window or choose a filename. The results is what matters. And the computer user interface has to go out of the way as much as possible. Less is more. We can even consider to create a different / alternative toolbarconfiguration for Mac. Easy to do with a huge effect.BTW - are we running over time? How long do we meet?ericb2mprove: average time for meeting is ~2 hoursshaunmcdonaldmprove: we have one other item today: the web siteericb2want to finish with 2nd Mac porters meeting in Hamburg Germany :-)mproveso please go ahead, thanks for your attentionshaunmcdonaldericb2: you never added that to the agendaericb2shaunmcdonald: in misc :-)shaunmcdonald: we already discussed two times about the Mac porters meetingshaunmcdonaldericb2: you even missed out misc! :-Pericb2shaunmcdonald: too tired ;-)mprove: just a wordshaunmcdonaldericb2: I thought the meeting was meant to be set on a Wednesday?mprove: go onschmidtmericb2: can you stay after the meeting for 1/2 questions?ericb2mprove: your approach is very interesting, and I'll try to find a way to connect everything you presented with Mac portschmidtm: sureshaunmcdonaldnext point?ericb2no question to mprove ?mproveI just got me a bananna, after all this apple stuff. I am happy to share my point of view with you.shaunmcdonaldmprove: heheericb2Point 3 : last web site changesshaunmcdonaldsky: you ready?skyok.Am I to 'take the lead' now?mikeleib joined the chat room.mikeleibshaunmcdonaldI'll do a bit firstto say what has changed with the web site latelyit has been a while since we discussed itmost of the site now has the new look and feelas you will see from http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/which just received the make over this morning (local time)prior to louis announcing the release of 2.0.4that way we had our QAed builds ready before the main pagenews updated as welltoday I finally worked out what to do with the grey strip down the right on pages such as http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/news/news2006.htmluse it to put some related links or undynamic backlinksericb2shaunmcdonald: clap clap :-)skywhats up with that?why doesnt the text just fill the space?mav_ericshaunmcdonald, i'll second that. Looks really good the new siteshaunmcdonaldfor developers stuff still need to be expanded and more contentscreenshot also need to be added/completedsky: take a look at http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/index.html and you will see the news in that grey spacemav_ericshaunmcdonald, I have some "old" screenshots showing OOo 2.0.x or so. Once I find them I go through and see if they are of any useskyright. so each page is gonna have news like that?shaunmcdonaldthe same template has been used elsewherehttp://porting.openoffice.org/mac/download/index.html has some other info for examplemav_ericshaunmcdonald, if not by the end of november we have a mac session here in germany and I can take some new onesshaunmcdonaldwith the screenshots, fipa had said he would do something, but I haven't seen anything yet from himso I might do it my selfwhat I want to do is have two sections, one for X11, or Aquathen have a grid of thumbnailsand then you can view a larger version on clicking the thumbnailpossible with a slideshowit probably would be easier with a bit of software to generate thisif any one else has an easy way to do this then let me knowmav_ericshaunmcdonald, thumbnails etc can be done with graphicconverterericb2shaunmcdonald: I do use iPhoto for my thumbnails/screenshots. Not perfect, but very easyskysuggests screencasts should be added to the mix. both for features and helpshaunmcdonaldI also need to check all the links on site, as some are not quite rightericb2: fipa had suggested iPhoto too!sky: what is a screencast?skyits an animated screenshot of shorts, plus you can do voice overs. these could be used to show features, sneak peeks, or as tutorialsmav_ericand for screenshots there is FreeSnap http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/9220shaunmcdonaldDoes anyone have anything to go into http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/links.html ?mav_ericbetter than the OS X screenshot functionskyshaunmcdonald: you could add all those blogs to the linksmproveI use SnapClipericb2shaunmcdonald: planet ?shaunmcdonaldthey are already at http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/news/index.htmlericb2shaunmcdonald: roadmapskyWhat I'd liek to do, is cover a few of the key pages and offer a critique of eachshaunmcdonaldericb2: notedericb2shaunmcdonald: press book or articles ?shaunmcdonaldsky: go ahead, as long as it is constructiveskyhahashaunmcdonaldericb2: made a todo in my google notebook from oooconskyOk. Site-Wide first.Off site links really need to be more clearly marked. its quite easy to loose your way from the mac site. Specifically, the 'features' should relate to specific mac features and not point off-siteI'd like to see at least a few features on the home page, as well as a sort of reconceptualization of its target audience.shaunmcdonaldsky: the features link was put there as a quick way to fill up all the linkssky: if you have any ideas for what that page should contain, or the content, let us know and it can be integratedskyOne should assume the audience would like to know: news, features, support, and porting project goals.and have all that available in a welcoming form on the home page.The mission statement is one sentence, then it breaks into a sort of project goals.then it jumps immediately to how to installshaunmcdonaldsky: I think the home page still isn't good enoughskyhow about a home page that says, hey, we are the mac porting project of openoffice.We currently offer a X11 based version of our project. Here are some features...In the future, we will offer an more mac like, Aqua based version of our project. Here are some features...Then introduce the communityOur community consists of developers and end users. Here is targeted information for each.mav_ericsky If you want to answer questions about the native port for the next months we can do as you suggest.skyThats what the web page should do. its already publiczed informationmav_ericbe aware as soon as native is mentioned everyone wants a beta or a finalskyThats why I'm here./i've followed it for many yearsshaunmcdonaldsky: I have tried to keep the front page as short as possibleskySo, give em what they want. A screenshot, let em look at the progressbut make it clear, on the hme page, that its unavialableshaunmcdonaldBTW how long will it be till we can give them some app that runs, even if it crashes?mav_ericeven if it is very very clear that it's unavailable the questions raise upskyFor instance, you should be able to get to the home page and find: info on the x11 version, plus download.Features being included in the aqua versionmav_ericsky that is already possiblebasicly the same featuresskyno, current versio is not mentionedmav_ericjust "another" lookshaunmcdonaldsky: http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/faq/index.htmlmprovethanks and good night, guysshaunmcdonaldooo.org is so slow at the momentmprove: good nightericb2sky: shaunmcdonald mav_eric : I propose to discuss this point on mac@porting mailing list :shaunmcdonaldsky: more specifically http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/faq/aqua-prerelease/index.htmlericb2this way other will contribute and a decision could be taken